Comments on: Revolutionary Treatment of Depression http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php Understand your mind with the science of psychology - Mon, 04 May 2009 10:30:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: JEn http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php/comment-page-1#comment-20540 JEn Thu, 04 Oct 2007 19:31:00 +0000 http://spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php#comment-20540 I use cognitive therapy psychology on myself and have since I was a teenager. I don't know where I got the idea, why I started doing it but part of me would think it'd be really fun to do a research project on it. I'd need to REALLY go back to school for that one though. <br /><br />I don't use a therapist and it really can be a major issue at times being that there are times I'd actually need the professional help. The idea of someone else determining right and wrong for me very much so bothers me though and living in the US gives me the right to approach my problems however I please. So I weigh issues, decide where the right path is and find ways to continually reinforce what I want to know or believe. The problem I see with it is that it's very shaky, prone to failure in a psychological attack. When in doubt, I take a look at our extremely befuddled and complicated legal system to determine "Yes, that'd be OK" or "No, that wouldn't be OK". The law provides the guidance and if I can't decide something I just research more. <br /><br />If I were anyone else, I wouldn't recommend it. It's almost a suicide mission because no one really knows how it's going to work - including myself. In cases that Ganesh is speaking of, it works beautifully. Just telling yourself over and over that you're over someone works wonders. Expressing the "lie" to your friends that you're over the person works too. At least, it works long enough for you to get attached to someone else instead. Messing with your own head can be a little fun, you know. I use cognitive therapy psychology on myself and have since I was a teenager. I don't know where I got the idea, why I started doing it but part of me would think it'd be really fun to do a research project on it. I'd need to REALLY go back to school for that one though.

I don't use a therapist and it really can be a major issue at times being that there are times I'd actually need the professional help. The idea of someone else determining right and wrong for me very much so bothers me though and living in the US gives me the right to approach my problems however I please. So I weigh issues, decide where the right path is and find ways to continually reinforce what I want to know or believe. The problem I see with it is that it's very shaky, prone to failure in a psychological attack. When in doubt, I take a look at our extremely befuddled and complicated legal system to determine "Yes, that'd be OK" or "No, that wouldn't be OK". The law provides the guidance and if I can't decide something I just research more.

If I were anyone else, I wouldn't recommend it. It's almost a suicide mission because no one really knows how it's going to work - including myself. In cases that Ganesh is speaking of, it works beautifully. Just telling yourself over and over that you're over someone works wonders. Expressing the "lie" to your friends that you're over the person works too. At least, it works long enough for you to get attached to someone else instead. Messing with your own head can be a little fun, you know.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php/comment-page-1#comment-20515 Anonymous Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:11:00 +0000 http://spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php#comment-20515 Hello,<br />having worked as a Nurse Cognitive Behaviour Therapist for many years, I found a recent workshop on Behaviour Activation in Depression very useful and practical. Focussing on the consequences of actions and relating them to associated emotions was an experience more powerful than I had imagined, and, despite initial difficulties in wanting to explore cognitions, I found that the model flowed fluently and easily. Hello,
having worked as a Nurse Cognitive Behaviour Therapist for many years, I found a recent workshop on Behaviour Activation in Depression very useful and practical. Focussing on the consequences of actions and relating them to associated emotions was an experience more powerful than I had imagined, and, despite initial difficulties in wanting to explore cognitions, I found that the model flowed fluently and easily.

]]> By: Jeremy (PsyBlog author) http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php/comment-page-1#comment-20500 Jeremy (PsyBlog author) Mon, 24 Sep 2007 08:19:00 +0000 http://spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php#comment-20500 Ganesh, cognitive therapy doesn't necessarily make any assumptions about causes. In fact as a style of therapy, it is much less interested in causes than other well-known styles. <br /><br />The main focus is on styles of thinking and adjusting these to improve outcomes. Whether focussing on irrational thoughts is central would depend on the individual person. Ganesh, cognitive therapy doesn't necessarily make any assumptions about causes. In fact as a style of therapy, it is much less interested in causes than other well-known styles.

The main focus is on styles of thinking and adjusting these to improve outcomes. Whether focussing on irrational thoughts is central would depend on the individual person.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php/comment-page-1#comment-20494 Anonymous Sun, 23 Sep 2007 01:58:00 +0000 http://spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php#comment-20494 sorry for posting on an ooold topic, but i am starting to learn about cognitive therapy, and as a layman, i find it fascinating.<br />the only problem i have with it is that it seems to assume that depression cannot have factual causes. what about say, having a post-breakup depression, can that be solved using this technique that assumes i have irrational thoughts? (after all, it is rational to grieve).<br />or is it that those kind of depressions too contain some irrational thoughts as factors?<br /><br />~ganesh sorry for posting on an ooold topic, but i am starting to learn about cognitive therapy, and as a layman, i find it fascinating.
the only problem i have with it is that it seems to assume that depression cannot have factual causes. what about say, having a post-breakup depression, can that be solved using this technique that assumes i have irrational thoughts? (after all, it is rational to grieve).
or is it that those kind of depressions too contain some irrational thoughts as factors?

~ganesh

]]> By: Brad http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php/comment-page-1#comment-19796 Brad Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:13:00 +0000 http://spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php#comment-19796 You are wrong, Steve, to think that the "modern" behavioral activation studies "focus on" anything other than what they call the "instigation" of behavior, which is accomplished purely through verbal (cognitive) means.<br /><br />Read the methods sections again, if you have read them previously. To "focus on" something in a psychological study typically means (at the very least) that it has been measured. However, in the studies to which you refer, there are no measures of contextual phenomena such as "schedules of reinforcement" or "rule governance" or "transformation of stimulus" functions. There is no functional analysis, so the behavioral activation studies are not actually behavioral.<br /><br />In any case, operant formulations are not testable theories, as Skinner points out in his classic "Are theories of learning necessary." He makes the case that we do not need theory. Operant concepts are entirely tautological, or circular: How do we know reinforcement has taken place? Because response probabilities change. Why did response probabilities change? Reinforcement.<br /><br />Pure operant ideas (including the modern ones) do not seem to work as scientific (i.e., falsifiable) theories. I have yet to find a single coherent novel prediction that can be derived from them. You are wrong, Steve, to think that the "modern" behavioral activation studies "focus on" anything other than what they call the "instigation" of behavior, which is accomplished purely through verbal (cognitive) means.

Read the methods sections again, if you have read them previously. To "focus on" something in a psychological study typically means (at the very least) that it has been measured. However, in the studies to which you refer, there are no measures of contextual phenomena such as "schedules of reinforcement" or "rule governance" or "transformation of stimulus" functions. There is no functional analysis, so the behavioral activation studies are not actually behavioral.

In any case, operant formulations are not testable theories, as Skinner points out in his classic "Are theories of learning necessary." He makes the case that we do not need theory. Operant concepts are entirely tautological, or circular: How do we know reinforcement has taken place? Because response probabilities change. Why did response probabilities change? Reinforcement.

Pure operant ideas (including the modern ones) do not seem to work as scientific (i.e., falsifiable) theories. I have yet to find a single coherent novel prediction that can be derived from them.

]]> By: Steve http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php/comment-page-1#comment-19760 Steve Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:22:00 +0000 http://spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php#comment-19760 Well Brad, even if the cognitive revolution redefined behaviorism in cognitive terms, it does not mean that all behaviorists accepted this conceptual and philosophical change. <br /><br />Radical behaviorism did not reject cognition/private events as important phenomena, just the idea that they are causal. The modern behavioral activation studies have been done by behaviorist researchers who continue to reject the cognitive modication account of change, instead focusing on contextual phenomena such as changes in schedules of reinforcement, rule governance, and transformation of stimulus functions. <br /><br />If you want a "sophisticated" behavioral account of cognition, that is not situated within the philosophical and assumptive space of the cognitive revolution, try Relational Frame Theory. This theory can account for what happens in cognitive therapy in behavioral terms, linking it to basic science about language. This is something that so far cognitive therapy researchers have not been able to do. Well Brad, even if the cognitive revolution redefined behaviorism in cognitive terms, it does not mean that all behaviorists accepted this conceptual and philosophical change.

Radical behaviorism did not reject cognition/private events as important phenomena, just the idea that they are causal. The modern behavioral activation studies have been done by behaviorist researchers who continue to reject the cognitive modication account of change, instead focusing on contextual phenomena such as changes in schedules of reinforcement, rule governance, and transformation of stimulus functions.

If you want a "sophisticated" behavioral account of cognition, that is not situated within the philosophical and assumptive space of the cognitive revolution, try Relational Frame Theory. This theory can account for what happens in cognitive therapy in behavioral terms, linking it to basic science about language. This is something that so far cognitive therapy researchers have not been able to do.

]]> By: Brad http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php/comment-page-1#comment-19732 Brad Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:18:00 +0000 http://spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php#comment-19732 Beck's original treatment included activation to test automatic thoughts. The "behavioral activation" studies attempt to show the merit of action alone -- apparently apart from the mind or brain (cognition) -- in clinical treatment of depression. However, the cognitive revolution re-defined behaviorism in cognitive terms, so it is a false dichotomy to speak of "pure behavior" apart from the cognitive factors. Indeed, most sophisticated learning theorists think that the behavioral activation studies work through cognitive modification. Beck's original treatment included activation to test automatic thoughts. The "behavioral activation" studies attempt to show the merit of action alone -- apparently apart from the mind or brain (cognition) -- in clinical treatment of depression. However, the cognitive revolution re-defined behaviorism in cognitive terms, so it is a false dichotomy to speak of "pure behavior" apart from the cognitive factors. Indeed, most sophisticated learning theorists think that the behavioral activation studies work through cognitive modification.

]]> By: Delaware Watch http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php/comment-page-1#comment-19713 Delaware Watch Sun, 18 Feb 2007 02:01:00 +0000 http://spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php#comment-19713 " Over-generalization - Minimalisation and Maximisation - Dichotomous thinking"<br /><br />I'm not confident these categories are original psychological discoveries or insights as much as they are informal logical fallacies restated in other terms.<br /><br />1. Over-generalization = Hasty generalization.<br /><br />2. Minimalisation = Fallacy of division.<br /><br />3. Maximisation = Fallacy of composition.<br /><br />4. Dichotomous thinking = Either/or fallacy. " Over-generalization - Minimalisation and Maximisation - Dichotomous thinking"

I'm not confident these categories are original psychological discoveries or insights as much as they are informal logical fallacies restated in other terms.

1. Over-generalization = Hasty generalization.

2. Minimalisation = Fallacy of division.

3. Maximisation = Fallacy of composition.

4. Dichotomous thinking = Either/or fallacy.

]]> By: wookie http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php/comment-page-1#comment-19706 wookie Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:29:00 +0000 http://spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php#comment-19706 Over-generalisation - Minimalisation and Maximisation - Dichotomous thinking... does this mean that the entire Republican party is clinically depressed? ;o) Over-generalisation - Minimalisation and Maximisation - Dichotomous thinking... does this mean that the entire Republican party is clinically depressed? ;o)

]]> By: Jeremy (PsyBlog author) http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php/comment-page-1#comment-19703 Jeremy (PsyBlog author) Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:23:00 +0000 http://spring.org.uk/2007/02/revolutionary-treatment-of-depression.php#comment-19703 Anonymous, thanks for your detailed comment. <br /><br />You present some good balancing factors. The only one I'd take issue with is when you say that Beck is not a psychologist! Technically you're right of course but let's not fall our over it... <br /><br />I'm guessing you won't be voting for Beck then. So, what would be your nomination for your favourite psychology study of all time? All suggestions welcome... Anonymous, thanks for your detailed comment.

You present some good balancing factors. The only one I'd take issue with is when you say that Beck is not a psychologist! Technically you're right of course but let's not fall our over it...

I'm guessing you won't be voting for Beck then. So, what would be your nomination for your favourite psychology study of all time? All suggestions welcome...

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